Curse

Shadowfox1125 · Dec 14, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaxhou of Trinity

In the higher levels of PvE, warriors do paper damage to monsters and creatures

Wow.. if you had posted this in the Warrior forum..
There has been no need for "tanking" since day one of GW. Any decent warrior can have 16 in his weapon atttribute and still tank/body block. Watch Yourself! & Dolyak Signet do the job fine. Cut the crap with the warrior/tank stereotype.

One more thing: How would those skills be applied to PvP? I don't think Anet wants PvE only skills.

Sekkira · Dec 14, 2006, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

*cough*
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Otyugh%27s_Cry

Invalid arguement. That skill sucks regardless of where it's used. Why do people bring it up in a discussion of pve only skills?

Anarkii · Dec 14, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Warrior - Tactics Skill

Name: Bring it On!

Desciption: Skill. Target foe and foes adjacent to your target become aggrod to you for the next for 10...30 seconds. You lose all Adrenaline but you gain x2 Adrenaline for the next 1...8 seconds.

How about something like that?

If they intend to add traditional tanking(aggro-holding, specifically) skills to a warrior in future chapters, they need to put in a comprehensive aggro system first. Something like a 'hate-list' for a monster, like WoW uses. Currently, besides proximity aggro and seemingly some sort of caster-priority, there isnt much in place.

For those unfamiliar with a hate-list aggro system, say everyone starts with 0. A warrior runs in to get proximity aggro, does some kind of taunt to generate say 100 hate. He has other skills and stuff to help maintain aggro while DPS classes generate hate by doing damage and healers through healing. If someone overtakes the warrior on the hate list, the mob switches to that person.

Not that I'm advocating the use of such an aggro-system in Guild Wars, but if you want warriors to have aggro-holding skills, something like that needs to be implemented.

Shadowspawn X · Dec 14, 2006, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mylon

Taunt is a stupid game mechanic which serves the sole purpose of making the enemies stupid as well. It's a skill designed entirely to make an enemy attack the _worst_ possible target. That it has become a common staple in many MMOs only goes to show how they cater to the lowest common denominator.

Agreed it just amounts to a cheat code to over ride the AI.

Poison Ivy · Dec 14, 2006, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Warrior - Tactics Skill

Name: Bring it On!

Desciption: Skill. Target foe and foes adjacent to your target become aggrod to you for the next for 10...30 seconds. You lose all Adrenaline but you gain x2 Adrenaline for the next 1...8 seconds.

How about something like that?

What about PvP?

Or is this skill suppose to be another "Signet of Capture" in it

RTSFirebat · Dec 14, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

What about PvP?

Or is this skill suppose to be another "Signet of Capture" in it

Well Duh!

Afterall you can't force human players to switch target afterall, it would be a PvE only skill at the end of the day.

*Darcy* · Dec 14, 2006, 11:49 AM // 11:49

What the new AI has done is strengthen the original "go for the weakest armor" attack programming. If you are running a player party, members can easily adjust for this with positioning, kiting, running away, etc.

I get the feeling the OP doesn't like what it does to a hero/hench party. The single human player has to micro-manage the heroes/henchmen, which is not easy for a less experienced player. It tends to become a disaster when the only human player is a warrior with a poor view of the battle.

Muk Utep · Dec 14, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Tanking is possible with a team of human players. I've given up on trying to make heroes and henchies tank properly. I'll send Koss in and have him start attacking a mob before I even enter the aggro range, and once I start shooting my bow or the casters start casting their spells, enemies just run around the warrior and charge at us.

I don't think the right solution is a dumb skill like "press this button and enemies start attacking you". I think the aggro system needs a change; distance should have more of a factor in who gets attacked, and things like using a lot of shouts and using area effect attacks should make enemies more likely to attack you. It looks to me that the way it currently works, enemies will attack whoever has the lowest armor as soon as they've "entered" the fight (get into aggro range, cast a spell that affects someone in the fight, or attack).

WasAGuest · Dec 14, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

... It made people complacent because everything would attack the warrior and they were rarely in danger. Hardly anybody in PvE kites, and the monks use awful builds that run out of energy very fast, and can't keep anyone except someone with high AL alive (aka cast Healing Breeze on the tank).

Obviously an opinion vs a statement of truth. In PvE players are often in situations where they can not kite. Especially if heading out without a group of players. The AI will not allow it. So it is not the players fault they have learned not to kite, it's the AIs and Anet's design in the AI. The player tries the kite, the AI breaks off the attacking and begins to follow. It's always been this way to some extent and most rescently has become worse.

Character builds on the monks was not the suject, but rather why Warriors have little or no point to playing other than being what an assassin "could" be if it had higher armor... a damage dealer that chases mobs around in circles.

Aggro control in GW is nothing more than exploiting the "dumbness" of the mobs by making the get stuck on corners and body blocking, or running in circles till the "get stuck" on the person that should be tanking.

The lack of a real "hate" system has always been, IMO one of the lowest points in GW making it a game of simply exploiting AI to win. Without the hate system in place, PvE looses massive amounts of PvE strategies. Monks can spam heal vs taking and using the best heals for the job. Ele's can just blast away without consern of being a sudden target of a massive slap in the face. Mesmers can hex away on any and all targets without fear of ever getting their attention... and on and on the list goes.

What many assume (from what I read) is that players are wanting an easy way out. Not the case. We are wanting the warrior's to have a role, to put that high armor to use, but also to take the role of group protector. At the same time, every time a monk heals it should raise "hate", every time an ele nukes it should raise "hate", every time that paragon shouts, it should raise "hate". So a warrior's role suddenly becomes that of trying to keep his supportive group members safe and keeping the atention of everything he can. This will not be possible in all situations but will finally give the warriors a job other than "herder" and a "heavily armored assassin" (dps).

A taunt would be ideal, and I found myself in EQ2 being taunted by mobs. The taunt system was very nicely done. My target would auto switch to the taunting target since I obviously couldn't be baited away by an AI creature. A similar setup could be used here (for PvP) and with addition to the hate system, would make PvE far mor interesting. Imagine your attacking about to group spike a monk and suddenly the warrior taunt off some of your spike damage. Your now targeting the warrior instead of the monk. The reverse should always be looked at as well, to make it more difficult and interesting.

Deleet · Dec 14, 2006, 02:17 PM // 14:17

WasAGuest, read the Chapter 4: Brute force thread.

I explained why smarter AI is not a good idea.

Antheus · Dec 14, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Obviously an opinion vs a statement of truth. In PvE players are often in situations where they can not kite. Especially if heading out without a group of players. The AI will not allow it. So it is not the players fault they have learned not to kite, it's the AIs and Anet's design in the AI. The player tries the kite, the AI breaks off the attacking and begins to follow. It's always been this way to some extent and most rescently has become worse.

Character builds on the monks was not the suject, but rather why Warriors have little or no point to playing other than being what an assassin "could" be if it had higher armor... a damage dealer that chases mobs around in circles.

Kids, this is what happens when you play only with heroes and henchies.

Yes, AI has flaws and limitations. It's computer AI. Imperfect, doesn't know all the strategies, doesn't know tactics, has no spatial awareness.

Players didn't learn how to kite or tank, because they are too leet to enter a PUG. They are so above everything that they [email protected] with heroes. Every other player is a complete moron that couldn't meteor shower their way out of a wet paper bag, and don't even think they have something to learn. They are the bestest of best, and don't you dare judge it. /hugeExhaggeration

Guildwars was, is and will be, a game of skill. It provides a little filler for those downtimes when a group is just not filling up, but is not and will not be, intended for solo play. You can do it, but it's not what it's there for.

So you end up with 3 types of players. Those that learn, those that don't want to learn, and those that can't learn. If you only play game for a few hours a month, or even week, you can hardly play with others, you'll take months to beat a single campaign, and you'll be happy when you do. These players aren't a problem.

The problem comes from those that don't want to learn. Yes, AI has flaws. So group with people. No AI is preventing you from there. "All other people are idiots" - this is the real problem - the attitude.

Teamplay must be learned. No change to game will change that. No improvement to AI will change that.

Kiting is not running all over the map. Kiting is also jumping left and right to dodge projectiles. Running around the warrior so they can grab agro. Running behind a wall to preven direct attacks and some AoE. And so on.

If you want to learnt the game, you simply need to play with real players. Good or bad. The good weren't just born good. Everyone had to learn the same things.

As for chasing mobs on melee. You have cripple, you have knockdowns. I mean, Devona uses KDs to manage agro really well. How hard can it be.

Muk Utep · Dec 14, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Makes me wonder if a stance tank warrior with crappy starter armor would be viable. He should be grabbing plenty of aggro due to his minimal AL, and defensive stances make AL much less important.

WasAGuest · Dec 14, 2006, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Kids, this is what happens when you play only with heroes and henchies.

Yes, AI has flaws and limitations. It's computer AI. Imperfect, doesn't know all the strategies, doesn't know tactics, has no spatial awareness.

Players didn't learn how to kite or tank, because they are too leet to enter a PUG. They are so above everything that they [email protected] with heroes. Every other player is a complete moron that couldn't meteor shower their way out of a wet paper bag, and don't even think they have something to learn. They are the bestest of best, and don't you dare judge it. /hugeExhaggeration

Guildwars was, is and will be, a game of skill. It provides a little filler for those downtimes when a group is just not filling up, but is not and will not be, intended for solo play. You can do it, but it's not what it's there for.

So you end up with 3 types of players. Those that learn, those that don't want to learn, and those that can't learn. If you only play game for a few hours a month, or even week, you can hardly play with others, you'll take months to beat a single campaign, and you'll be happy when you do. These players aren't a problem.

The problem comes from those that don't want to learn. Yes, AI has flaws. So group with people. No AI is preventing you from there. "All other people are idiots" - this is the real problem - the attitude.

Teamplay must be learned. No change to game will change that. No improvement to AI will change that.

Kiting is not running all over the map. Kiting is also jumping left and right to dodge projectiles. Running around the warrior so they can grab agro. Running behind a wall to preven direct attacks and some AoE. And so on.

If you want to learnt the game, you simply need to play with real players. Good or bad. The good weren't just born good. Everyone had to learn the same things.

As for chasing mobs on melee. You have cripple, you have knockdowns. I mean, Devona uses KDs to manage agro really well. How hard can it be.

That was kinda my point... guess I didn't state it very well... lol

However, we can't ignore the AI. Anet has released Nightfall with heroes as a major selling point. Completely throwing them away cause they "don't work" that well makes the addition of them rather pointless.

Also, building a skill bar around obvious bugs (such as Benny Hill chasing); and yes these are bugs in the AI that Gaile has said the devs are working on fixing (read the threads on AI bugginess) is just more "exploit" poor code vs skill. Benny Hill... so yea, it's bugged and snaring or knock downs doesn't fix the bug, it exploits it as the AI (mobs and ally) will simply keep trying to follow. - this is nothing different from what was stated in the "Brute force" thread, where the game is less skill vs exploiting code weakness.

Anyway, I personally think GW could go further with the addition of a "hate" system vs what it is now. AI or not, it could be better... all games could always be better for that matter.

Commander Ryker · Dec 14, 2006, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Dude. I thought this was about wars. Not warriors. Abbreviations suck.

LMAO.....Me too! Glad I'm not the only one.

Franco Power · Dec 14, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

A person that says warriors do paper dmg is the kind of noob with a skill bar like this:

Healing hands, Mending, Healing breeze, Bonetis defense, Power attack, Dolyak Signet, Endure pain, Healing signet.

So Im not even going to take that post serious.

Try puting 16 in axe/hammer/sword whatever you use and pack good skill combos such as

Evis + Exe
sever,gash + final
Devas +crush + fierce

and then tell me if you are doing "paper" damage.

Tarkin · Dec 14, 2006, 02:41 PM // 14:41

...good warriors do a lot of damage... in anyplace...
...good warriors still agrooing good...

The warrior tank function is choose the first target, run in and take the first >spell wave<, hold some agroo >>>not all<<< and the function of tank over...

Now start the others function... good nukers, good necros, good mesmers and anyother... what the other functions? spread, some self heal, >do damage<...

Any party must start with 2 tanks and 2 monks, if anyone think tanks are useless, try a party without tanks...

I am a caster by nature, but i enjoy playing as warrior... because i just make a good agroo and receive the first damage wave, and over... finish...

Sekkira · Dec 14, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

One thing that bugs me about this subject is the whole concept of people whining about AI not supposed to be exploited as such. Crippling an enemy that is running away isn't something unintented ie. exploit. tbh, the only real way to beat an opponent is to exploit their weakness and play it to your advantage. Do we want a game where the AI is infinately smarter and more powerful than us? How do you beat that?

Sekkira · Dec 14, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarkin

Any party must start with 2 tanks and 2 monks, if anyone think tanks are useless, try a party without tanks...

You're up for great diversity there buddy. I don't suppose both those monks run healing?

Antheus · Dec 14, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarkin

Any party must start with 2 tanks and 2 monks, if anyone think tanks are useless, try a party without tanks...

Tiral...

Tural....

Tema....

TOMBS!!!!

There, I remembered.

See also "Urgoz Warren".

Tanks have their place, just like monks do. And mesmers. And ritualists. And assassins lol. But starting from the stance "I'm a Tank" is wrong. Just because you're a warrior doesn't make you a tank. This is where so many players fail.

Not only does GW not need taunt, it doesn't need it. Not now, not before any AI change. DoA, if anything, has proven, that Obsidian geotank uses exactly the same aproach to tanking as warrior can. The skills used are slightly different, but if someone playing a warrior doesn't or even refuses to learn how to tank, then the point of GW combat is lost.

The b/p team is even more unique. It combines ranger stances and throw dirt, combined with minions to do the tanking. Not to mention the 55/605 tanks, dervishes, or just about anyone that's protted enough.

Tanking in GW is player skill and it involves entire team. Not some button you press.

SpeedyKQ · Dec 14, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I'm glad there's no taunt skill.

I think the game is well designed as is. The warrior can reduce damage by drawing the initial aggro, and with some skill and cooperation can control aggro somewhat, but not perfectly. The warrior is designed to be a damage dealer first and a meat shield second - this is more fun, and balancing the two is a good test of skill.